Brew UK Forum | General Brewing Discussions
starting small
hi all,
I love ale! don't we all 
I have recently been on a bit of a mission to try as many wonderful award winning local beers that I can while also trying out regional and national ones too. after trying some and getting a bit of a nose and taste for the different flavours I became interested in looking into brewing my own but I want to start and keep things small. my question is can I perfect a brew on a really small scale setup (like home hobby size) and have this brew rival established beers? my goal isn't to beat other people as such but more to make something of as high quality and unique in its own right.
Responses
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Hi Brewerism. How small a scale are we talking about? The problem you get when working on a small scale is not one of quality, but one of consistent replication. For instance, if you use 14 gms of bittering hops in a 40 pint brew, you need 1.75 gm in an 8 pint brew. Conversly, if you apply the same maths to a 160 pint brew, you need 56 gms. The bigger the quantity you use, the more likely you are to get consistency. It's worse with the flavour and aroma hops because the quantities are smaller. A packet of hops contains good hops, not quite so good hops, stalks and all sorts. Even if you could weigh 1.75 gm accuartely, how can you tell this 1.75 gm has the same qualities of the last lot? 40 pints is just about the smallest you can brew and be reasonably consistent, but as anyone will tell you, no 2 brews will be exactly the same.
Now, to quality. Yes, you can brew excellent beer at home, but remember that a brewery apprenticeship is 5 years, which indicates that there is a great deal to know. The science is huge and largely, best ignored. To brew great beer you need to be brewing from the grain. Why? Because, with the best will in the world, you simply don't get the body, fullness and depth of flavour from A Malt Extract, dried or liquid. There are those that will argue this point, but plenty that will agree.
To make a 40 pint brew the minimum amount of equipment you will need is:
A boiler capable of boiling at least 30 - 35 lts of water
A Mash tun of at least 20 lts
A Wort chiller (mine's homemade from 10 mts of 10 mm copper tube)
A fermenting vessel of 25 - 30 lts
A second vessel the same size to facilitate transfers
A method of keeping temperatures accurate
A barrel or bottles
You will also need a siphon, sparging arrangements, possibly a pump and various other bits you'll need to make along the way.
One other thing you need is a place to work where you can be undisturbed.
Then you need time, study and patience. Start from an established recipe from Graham Wheeler's book "Brew your own Britsh Real Ale" and tweak it the way you want it. You could then go to the book "Designing Great Beers".
So, yes, you can make great beer at home, but whether you actually get all the qualities a small commercial scale brewery can acheive is questionable. The best thing to aim for is making a beer that you like drinking and are proud to hand round to your friends.
Planning: - To get some more brews on now the weather's a bit cooler
Fermenting: - Ginger Beer experiment
Conditioning: - A normal bitter with Styrians
Drinking: - All of it!!
E-mail: arnyfris@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
+1 to hamish! Nice post dude!
I cant say much more but I would like to add that although All garin is the gold standard of brewing beer, Extract is a great way of dipping your feet and many extract brers make quality beers. In fact in some homebrew competitions extract brewers will outshine AG brewers, this is down to the fact they dont have to worry about sparge problems (oversparging, ph etcetc) and if they also have a good yeast and a way of controlling temp then Extract beers can be as good as.
My first extract was the summer ale and it was a million times better than any kit I done and got the reccomendadion of an older colleuge saying that "it is better than any beer he has bought from the shop for ages"
Sorted.
Plannin'-
Loads a beer after an upgrade!
nathbrew@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
You mean saracen, don't you?.
I agree, nice post but perhaps it makes the process sound a little daunting, its not.
You can produce beer that is often better than some small commercial scale breweries. The problem they have is finance, they need to get their beer out of the door, so its often green beer. I think this is why so many micro brews taste so similar, maybe they're using the same yeast too.
I'm not sure how small is small but there was a fella over at Jim's made a 1 gallon brewery but alas I can't find the thread.
Fermenting: Summer pale ale
Maturing/Conditioning: Marynka pseudo-lager
Drinking: Wheat beer, ESB, Vienna lager & shop bought stuff
Posted 1 year ago by Member
hi guys,
yea for small I mean like something that is affordable and easy to keep at home. if I were to increase the scale would this mean I would have to increase the pot size of the bolier? and would I be looking at an industrial boiler rather than something that could be incorporated into a conventional home /hob oven. could I possibly get around the consistenty and accuracy of the hops problems by growing my own? consistency is something I would want to really try hard at maintaining if I can. the brew science is definitely something I want to learn, i've got the nose for spotting flavours in taste but I don't know yet how each different flavour can be tweeked and what this requires doing specifically in the brewing process.yea i'd be up for brewing from the grain if it would yeild the desired result i'm after and have some of the checklist already ,need some of the other bits.I could possibly use my dads garage as a place for some of the process if its too big to place indoors but I may even house all the equipment in there if it becomes messy or too cumbersome and large to place in the kitchen.I notice you both bring up temperature, would the garage be a good place for this stuff? the problem with the garage is that its not at all well insulated and I think gets mighty cold in the winter months.
saracen thanks a lot for your help
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Hi all. We started something here, didn't we. Thanks Nath and Hamish.
Perhaps I should have added, "consistently". Quite true that not all small breweries produce good beer. Finance is a big consideration for them, not least because the market is becoming highly competitive. All businesses have to make a profit and there's a limit to the price you can charge, so given that some hops and other ingredients cost a lot more than others, maybe the range of beers you can produce from affordable ingredients could be small. Sadly, this could be the beginning of the end for the micro brewery, because ingredient prices are set to soar again and it's only the big boys who can dictate the price they want to pay.
Let's try and answer some of your questions.
Boiler size. Yes, the bigger the batch of beer, the bigger the boiler needs to be. Plenty of boilers around that brew 40 pints and fit on the kitchen table.
Grow your own hops. Don't waste your time. Hop growers are experts and most come from abroad, so the chances of you getting a consistent crop year to year are virtually nil. Apart from that, the traditional varieties grow nearly 20 feet tall.
Consistency. Go for a 40 pint brew and keep notes. Be absolutely scrupulous about sterilisation and buy hops from a consistently good supplier, like Brew UK. Also, don't go for the high alpha hops. If you only need 10 gms of hops, unless you can weigh to 0.1 gm, the inaccuracies lead to high percentages.
Heat control. The garage is fine. There are plenty of posts on here about heating. The favourite set up seems to be the ATC800 temp controller linked to a 100 or 200 watt aquarium heater. I use a 100 watt and it raises a 40 pint brew 2 degrees in about 10 minutes.
What Nath says about Extract Brewing is quite true, and illustrates the fact that all grain brewing is something you need to work at, building up experience, but, as Hamish says, it's not difficult. They key is: keep it simple, keep it clean and be methodical. You are likely to get more consistent results with extract, and with experience of what things to add, such as Flaked Barly to add some extra body, you can produce excellent beer, but I still say, in general, all grain produces a better quality beer.
If you want somewhere to start, buy Graham Wheeler's book, "Brew your own British Real Ale". It will both give you a good idea of what it's all about, and order a Summer Ale kit from Greg. It's a really good one to start with as it gets you used to using grain and hops as well as Dried Malt Extract.
Planning: - To get some more brews on now the weather's a bit cooler
Fermenting: - Ginger Beer experiment
Conditioning: - A normal bitter with Styrians
Drinking: - All of it!!
E-mail: arnyfris@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
There is a micro that has just re-opened about 5 miles from me and it now has a brewery tap. Its a great venue with a huge window where you can see into the brewery. But the beer, man!, its so disappointing!. This might sound like a bit of a contradiction, the quality is good but the taste is so poor. All the beers are pales and are very similar with just a hint of citrus in a couple of them. There's clearly a lack of ingredients obviously with the bottom line in mind and you can tell just how young they are, I bet as soon as they have dropped clear they're out the door. I felt like giving the brewer my Nelson Sauvin Pale Ale recipe.
Brewerism, I'm agreeing with saracen again
buy Graham Wheeler's book!. Do a few extract brews, then see if you can resist stepping up to full mash, you could easily build a full mash brewery for under £100.
Fermenting: Summer pale ale
Maturing/Conditioning: Marynka pseudo-lager
Drinking: Wheat beer, ESB, Vienna lager & shop bought stuff
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Sorry bout that I meant Saracen. Hangovers eh! If your local I'm sure one of us can take you through the process of a beer on a brewday. I'm in Salisbury and would be more than happy to show you the grain way. Gw's book will start you on a good recipe which you can then tweak with hops, yeast, Malts etc etc that way you can hopefully achieve a consistent beer that you can play around with. What kinda price are you looking at for your setup and are you afraid of a bit of DIY? If not then why not make your setup like a lot of us do.
Plannin'-
Loads a beer after an upgrade!
nathbrew@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Member
that's encouraging hamish! thankyou for the book recommendation, i'll hunt it down. thanks again for answering the questions saracen.40 pint seems like the size i'll most likely go for then ,it just so happens I just checked and the fermenter I have is 25 litres. taken onboard the advice on hops ,i'll buy from growers. I have heard that hops are grown in the uk and I would ,if I could, like to buy from as local as I can without sacrificing quality. is the uk hops that bad compared to overseas ones? these guys are quite local to me http://www.hepworthbrewery.co.uk/Draughtbeer.html
they state they use hops sourced from nearby, i've tried some of their beers,to me they were all ok but i've had better beer. but if their supplier could supply me then I may be able to see the stuff first hand, could that make a difference if I know what i'm looking for? i'm kind of dreading the thought of ordering overseas hops and them being wildly inconsistent in quality?
I plan on being quite rigorous with sterilization and cleaning and i'd like to hear about some peoples setups and their methods for this if I can. I was considering getting some very accurate electronic scales, the more accurate they are the more they cost from what i've seen and some can go up quite high in price.just wondering if its necessary to buy some that are really accurate? or should I go for something a bit more modest and will do the job just as well? has anyone experimented with this sort of thing? heating equipment is another thing I haven't looked at, will have to do a search on that, if you guys have a link to threads with pictures,explanations or videos of your setups that would be great.i've mostly been watching youtube videos so far at getting an idea of how peoples home setups are done and learning.
i'll take that advice on about starting with extract nath. I do definitely want to give full grain a go though.I don't suppose you guys would have a link to some of the kit i'd need in particular the boiler? and where the best places to buy would be.thanks again
Posted 1 year ago by Member
hey nath,
£100-200 is all I have to spare right now for equipment but I was thinking of the possibility of upgrading too if need be. i'm not too experienced with diy in the sense of building stuff ,I could probably fix the odd thing here and there though.
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Right £200 will be fine for DIY all grain equipment mate no problem there, as for the hops have a look at the different types - check Wikipedia and on this site and you will see that hops from different countries have totally different and amazing tastes, aromas and buttering qualities. There is nothing wrong with English hops I that's what you are looking for but you may want a citrusy smell which you can get from cascade a USA hop. The amount of hops is amazing and if you use them right - well you will love it. I'm away from pc at the mo and typing this on me fone so I can't get exact details of the all grain gear but I'm sure the others will soon. Remember if ya wanna see it in action have a look at the all grain part of the forum and in the brewdays part and have a look at some piccys.
Plannin'-
Loads a beer after an upgrade!
nathbrew@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Member
cheers man,ah I get the point about world flavours on the hops,I haven't quite worked out about hop growth and the in's and outs about different types.need to read up on that, will have a good look around.
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Take a look at this fella, it'll give you a good idea about what equipment you'll need and what you need to do.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jimmythebrewer#p/a/u/0/ABve6NbPNhk
http://www.youtube.com/user/jimmythebrewer#p/a/u/1/fY0c-7F4PbQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/jimmythebrewer#p/a/u/2/fpL2eBzULrA
http://www.youtube.com/user/jimmythebrewer#p/a/f/0/sDMClThh-GE
Fermenting: Summer pale ale
Maturing/Conditioning: Marynka pseudo-lager
Drinking: Wheat beer, ESB, Vienna lager & shop bought stuff
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
A commercial hop supplier who supplies breweries will probably sell you 5 kg of hops, which is enough to brew 5,000 lts of beer at ABV 4.0% and you would need 577 kg of Dried Malt Extract. So ...... when you order hops, order them from Greg at Brew UK at a cost of between about £4.50 and £6.50 per 100 gms. As regards knowing what to look for, a brewing apprenticeship is 5 years. Start simple and work upwards.
Planning: - To get some more brews on now the weather's a bit cooler
Fermenting: - Ginger Beer experiment
Conditioning: - A normal bitter with Styrians
Drinking: - All of it!!
E-mail: arnyfris@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Member
Watching those videos have made all grain look even more tempting for me lol.
Fermenting:Dandelion wine
Conditioning:Fullers pride extract Elderflower wine,Dandelion wine,Ribena wine,summer ale
Drinking: Turbo Cider/summer ale/way to amarillo/funked up wherry
beerlover1983brew@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Member
thanks saracen, yea i'll keep it simple it makes the most sense. hamish thanks for the vids ,they were great to watch!
Posted 1 year ago by Admin
Good post chaps.
The only thing I would add is to do some reading but not too much as you will get confused and possibly put yourself off. The best thing to do is to gather up some basic equipment and get stuck in, learning and improving as you go along. At worst you will produce more than acceptable beer along the way, hopefully better than expected and it will get better and better as you go along.
Master your art on a small scale then scale up in you wish whilst minimising risk and investment.
You can brew just as good beer at home, if not better especially as you can also control how its served to ensure its fresh and well stored.
You can also brew it just how you like it.
Its also a great hobby which your friends and family will enjoy too!
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Morning Greg. Thanks for the order. Prompt and efficient as usual.
I always suggest reading GW's book "Brew your own British Real Ale". It covers just about everything we need to know in an understandable way and not so thoroughly you get confused and put off. I've got Dave Lines book "The Big Book of Brewing" but I find that while he's knowledgable, so much of it has been superceded.The one thing I really have noticed from books and the Net is that there are so many conflicting opinions out there, how do you know what's right other than by experience.
What books do you recommend?
Planning: - To get some more brews on now the weather's a bit cooler
Fermenting: - Ginger Beer experiment
Conditioning: - A normal bitter with Styrians
Drinking: - All of it!!
E-mail: arnyfris@gmail.com
Posted 1 year ago by Member
'Dave Line's big book of brewing' guided me in, but as Saracen says, Some of his ideas seem a little dated now. I still look at him like a Godfather.
Once you have the basic idea, a forum like this one is invaluable.
Posted 1 year ago by Moderator
Do you need to read anything other than a Wheeler book?. Greg hit the nail on the head, too much info can get confusing.
I have 'Home Brewing The Camra Guide' by Graham Wheeler, first published in 1993
and I constantly refer back to it.
There's a lot of bad practice out there, do it the Wheeler way.
Fermenting: Summer pale ale
Maturing/Conditioning: Marynka pseudo-lager
Drinking: Wheat beer, ESB, Vienna lager & shop bought stuff
Posted 1 year ago by Member
I've never had a Wheeler book, but he seems to be respected in these parts. So I'll get one.
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